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  • In the ludo incident, it was 15 years back, the acceptance of jain path as the only true ine etc all occures 5 years after the above incident, remaineed and continued for the next seven years Discuss how Jain texts treat intrusive thoughts explicitly Pro
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    Jain Follower

    In the ludo incident, it was 15 years back, the acceptance of jain path as the only true ine etc all occures 5 years after the above incident, remaineed and continued for the next seven years Discuss how Jain texts treat intrusive thoughts explicitly Pro

    7 months ago 50

    I will answer step‑by‑step, in simple language, and only from Jain dharma.

    I will not try to “decide” your spiritual level. That is only truly known to Kevalī Bhagwān. I will explain:

    • how Jain āgamas look at thoughts vs. intentions,
    • what is possible for a samyag‑dṛṣṭi jīva,
    • what kind of bhāva binds heavy or even nikačit karma,
    • and how to deal with these thoughts now.

    ---

    1. In Jain dharma, what really binds karma?

    Jain texts are very clear:

    • Karma does not bind only because a picture or idea flashes in the mind.
    • Karma binds mainly because of:
    - Intention (icchā / abhiprāya) - Enjoyment in the passion (kashāya mein rati) - Repeated dwelling on it (bar‑bar sochnā, dhyān lagānā) - No repentance, even when you know it is wrong

    This is called bhāva‑bandha (bondage through inner attitude).

    So:

    • A sudden dirty or violent thought that comes and goes, which you don’t want, and you immediately feel:
    - “This is wrong, I don’t want this,” - You say “vosirāmi, micchāmi dukkaḍaṃ,” - You do pratikramaṇ,

    → This binds much lighter karma compared to

    • Sustained, enjoyed, justified hatred or cruelty, like:
    - “I want to hurt this person, they deserve it,” - You feel pleasure in imagining it, - You justify it again and again, - You feel no regret for long time,

    → This is raudra‑dhyāna and binds very heavy pāpa karma (sometimes even of the “worst” types).

    This basic principle is explained again and again in Jain works like Tattvārtha Sūtra (esp. chapters on Asrava & Bandha) and their commentaries.

    ---

    2. Intrusive “bad” thoughts during bhakti

    You wrote:

    > When I’m doing bhakti or thinking of Tīrthaṅkar Bhagwān, I get sudden thoughts like harming Tīrthaṅkars, killing sadhus, killing all jīvas, etc. I don’t want these thoughts. They shock me; I feel great pain; I say vosirāmi, michhāmi dukkadam, do Aloyan, and remain worried for hours.

    This is very important:

    2.1 Two types of “negative” thoughts (very simplified)

    (1) Accepted & enjoyed durbhāva

    • A person believes: “Harming sādhus is good / these are false gurus / karma doesn’t matter, etc.”
    • Or he likes the idea: “If Tīrthaṅkars existed, I would insult or hurt them.”
    • Or he makes fun of dharma, speaks nindā (insulting speech) of Tīrthaṅkars, kevalīs, sadhus, etc.
    • And feels no remorse.

    This is serious mithyātva, “dharma‑nindā,” and binds very heavy karma.

    (2) Unwanted intrusive thoughts

    • Thought comes against your will.
    • Immediately you feel:
    - “This is horrible, I don’t want this.” - Your śraddhā (faith) in Tīrthaṅkars remains firm. - You quickly do pratikramaṇ. - These thoughts trouble you; you don’t enjoy them.

    This is more like:

    • Old karmas (mohaniya, antarāya) showing their effect as strange imaginations.
    • Your inner bhāva at that time is actually:
    - Fear of sin, - Reverence for Tīrthaṅkars, - Repentance, - Desire to be pure.

    In Jain view, these two are completely different in karmic result, even if the “content” of the thought appears similar.

    In your case, from what you describe:

    > “As soon as the thought comes, I feel immense pain and shock, say vosirāmi, michhāmi dukkadam, chant aloye, and remain in tension.”

    This shows:

    • Your faith (darśan) is not to harm Tīrthaṅkars or sādhus.
    • Your real bhāva is fear of sin, devotion, repentance.
    • The disturbing picture is not your real wish, it is like a karmic “wave” crossing the mind.

    So:

    • These thoughts do bind some karma (because there is some agitation, kashāya).
    • But they are far from the karmas of actual hatred or nindā of Tīrthaṅkars.
    • Your immediate pratikramaṇ weakens that bondage.

    They do not automatically “extend saṃsāra to infinity” if you keep reforming your bhāvas again and again.

    ---

    3. Your old ludo & teacher incidents – how to see them in Jain way

    You described:

    • Willfully damaging friend’s board,
    • Lying about it,
    • Long‑term anger and hatred towards him,
    • Enjoyment/justification of anger,
    • Refusal to forgive even when he tried to reconcile,
    • Very violent fantasies about the teacher who beat you,
    • For years, with pleasure and no repentance,
    • Later, realization of fault, deep regret, mental apology, and now sorrow.

    3.1 Was that mithyā‑bhāva, samyak‑bhāva, or miśra‑bhāva?

    In Jain philosophy:

    • Mithyā‑dṛṣṭi: Wrong faith in fundamentals (no trust in Tattvas, no faith in Panch Parmeshthi, denying karma, etc).
    • Samyag‑dṛṣṭi: Right faith in:
    - Soul (jīva), - Karma and its fruits, - Tīrthaṅkars, Kevalīs, Sādhus, - Path of ratnatraya (samyak darśan, jñān, chāritra), - Without inner nindā of true dharma.
    • Miśra‑dṛṣṭi: Mixed – sometimes right, sometimes wrong; some faith, some doubts.

    Now, about your past bhāvas:

    • The moments you:
    - Felt enjoyment in cruelty, - Took pride in violent fantasies, - Strongly justified hatred, - Felt no repentance although you knew it was wrong,

    → Those specific moments were very close to mithyā‑bhāva. → Especially when you knew it is wrong by dharma, yet defended it inside.

    • At the same time, in your life there were also periods where:
    - You accepted Jain dharma as only true path, - Bowed only to Panch Parmeshthi, - Desired dīkshā, - Desired moksha, - Felt karuṇā for all beings, - Cried thinking about abhavya jīvas, - Started guru‑vandana 108 times, did pratikramaṇ etc.

    → These are strong samyag‑bhāvas.

    So, over many years you have had:

    • Times of raudhra‑dhyān (angry, cruel meditation),
    • Times of dharma‑dhyān (thinking of moksha, Tīrthaṅkars, compassion),
    • Times of pramāda (spiritual laziness).

    This mixture is typical of a samsāri jīva in lower guṇasthānas. It does not prove permanently:

    • “I must be mithyādṛṣṭi forever,” or
    • “I must be samyagdṛṣṭi forever.”

    A jīva can move:

    • From mithyātva → miśra → samyak → fall again, etc.,
    many times in anādi‑kāl.

    You have clearly changed:

    • First, you enjoyed hatred and justified it.
    • Later, you saw your fault, felt regret, apologized mentally, and now want to purify.

    This is exactly the movement away from mithyā‑bhāva toward samyak‑bhāva.

    ---

    4. Can a samyag‑dṛṣṭi jīva have such anger, ego, and cruel thoughts?

    We must be very precise.

    4.1 What samyag‑dṛṣṭi definitely does not have

    A true samyag‑dṛṣṭi:

    1. Does not deny:

    - Existence of soul, - Karma and its fruits, - Existence and greatness of Tīrthaṅkars and true sādhus.

    1. Does not accept any other path as equal to or higher than:

    - Panch Parmeshthi and their path of ahiṃsā, satya, brahmacharya, aparigraha.

    1. Does not do real dharma‑nindā:

    - Deliberate insulting of Tīrthaṅkars, - Enjoying speaking against true dharma.

    From your description:

    • You never truly thought, “Tīrthaṅkars are false” or “Jain dharma is untrue.”
    • You accepted quickly that Jain dharma is the only true religion.
    • You bow only to Panch Parmeshthi.
    • Even when bad thoughts came, you felt fear and pain, not joy.

    So you do not show signs of conscious dharma‑nindā.

    4.2 What a samyag‑dṛṣṭi can still have (until higher guṇasthānas)

    A samyag‑dṛṣṭi in 4th guṇasthān (common stage) can still have:

    • Strong anger, pride, deceit, greed (kashāyas),
    • Long‑lasting grudges,
    • Raudra dhyān for some time,
    • Intrusive sexual, violent, or insulting thoughts,
    • Repeated falling into old habits.

    The main difference:

    • He knows inside, “This is wrong,”
    • At least sometimes repents,
    • Values dharma more than ego,
    • Slowly moves toward apology, forgiveness, self‑control.

    From your story:

    • You now see that your behaviour to your friend and teacher was very wrong.
    • You cry, feel deep regret, do mental pratikramaṇ.
    • You feel remorse after answering harshly to elder family member.
    • You are trying to remain quiet instead of reacting, though anger still arises.

    This is exactly the movement expected in a jīva whose darśan is improving.

    So:

    > Can a samyag‑dṛṣṭi jīva have such thoughts?

    • Yes, strong kashāyas and even ugly imaginations can still appear in a samyag‑dṛṣṭi at lower stages.
    • What is not possible for a stable samyag‑dṛṣṭi for long is deliberate, joyful denial of dharma and Tīrthaṅkars.

    But again: whether you personally are samyag‑dṛṣṭi, miśra‑dṛṣṭi, or mithyā‑dṛṣṭi at any moment is something only Kevalī truly knows. You should not torture yourself with this label; instead, purify your present bhāva.

    ---

    5. Can merely “thinking of killing someone brutally” bind nikačit karma?

    Jain texts say:

    • Nikačit karma is that which:
    - Is extremely fixed, - Cannot be completely uprooted once bound; only its intensity or surrounding conditions can change.

    It is generally bound by:

    • Very intense, repeated, delighted raudra‑dhyān,
    • With kashāya at anantanubandhi level (so strong it can cut even samyak‑darśan).

    So:

    • One or few intrusive thoughts, quickly rejected, with fear and regret →
    This is not the typical cause of nikačit karma.
    • Long‑term, joyful, justified imagination of cruelty,
    where you really want and enjoy thinking, “I wish she dies by my hand” → This can bind very heavy karmas. Whether it is nikačit in the technical sense, we simply cannot know.

    In your story:

    • You had violent fantasies about the teacher for years, with pleasure and no repentance initially.
    • So yes, that period likely bound very heavy pāpa karma.
    • But:
    - You later realized your fault, - Felt remorse, - Apologized mentally, - Now pray for purification.

    Jain dharma teaches:

    • Pratikramaṇ, pratyākhyān, vinaya, kshamā reduce the intensity and duration of even very heavy karmas.
    • Once nikačit is bound, its existence cannot be cancelled,
    but its impact and your inner preparation can change.

    So: do not sit and fear, “Maybe I have bound nikačit, now my saṃsāra is infinite.”

    Instead think:

    > “Whatever I have bound, my work now is pure present bhāva, constant pratikramaṇ, and progress toward ahiṃsā and kshamā.”

    That is the Jain way.

    ---

    6. “How is such contradiction possible in me?”

    You asked:

    > How can such deep cruelty and also such deep compassion / desire for moksha exist in the same person?

    Jain dharma says:

    • A saṃsārī jīva is anādi‑kāl se (since beginningless time) covered by layers of mohaniya karma.
    • So inside us live both:
    - Seeds of Tīrthaṅkar‑bhāva (karuṇā, ahiṃsā, tyāga), - Seeds of Nārakī‑bhāva (cruelty, jealousy, intense anger).

    So it is normal in lower stages to see:

    • One day: mildness, forgiveness, crying for others’ suffering, desire for moksha,
    • Another day: ego, revenge, sharp speech, violent fantasies.

    This is called:

    • Granthi (knots) of the soul,
    • Miśra bhāva,
    • Influence of different karmas rising at different times.

    The important point in Jain dharma is:

    • Which side do you now choose to nourish?
    • Do you:
    - Keep remembering and justifying old hatred? or - Cut it with kshamā bhāva? - Use those memories to feel more disgusted with saṃsāra, and more eager for moksha?

    From your words about:

    • Seeing the death poster,
    • Feeling nirved (detachment) about this useless running after money,
    • Deep sorrow for all saṃsārī jīvas,
    • Desire that everyone be freed from pain,
    • Desire to be Tīrthaṅkar to help all,

    — These are very high bhāvas, praised in Jain texts. They don’t get cancelled just because there were also bad phases. Both have left their own karmic traces. Now you choose which seeds to water.

    ---

    7. What can you do practically now, in Jain terms?

    7.1 For intrusive violent / blasphemous thoughts

    When a thought comes:

    1. Do not panic.

    Remember: “This is old karma; it is not my true nature.”

    1. Very gently do:

    - “Vosirāmi, micchāmi dukkaḍaṃ” - Short ālochana: “Hey Arihant, I am ashamed of this thought; I take support in your path.”

    1. Change the channel:

    - At once, think of Navkār Mantra, Panch Parmeshthi, - Or repeat any stavana slowly with meaning.

    1. Do not keep checking: “Am I samyag‑dṛṣṭi or not?”

    That worry itself becomes aart‑dhyān (painful, unhelpful concentration).

    Just think: “Right now, I will keep the best possible bhāva.”

    7.2 For old hatred (friend, teacher, relatives)

    • Do heart‑level kshamā‑bhāva:
    - Sit quietly, imagine them in front of you and say: - “From my side, I forgive your faults.” - “From my side, please forgive my faults.” - “Micchāmi dukkaḍaṃ.”
    • If naturally possible and safe, in this life:
    - Speak politely, keep normal behaviour, - If appropriate, actually apologize for your past harshness. (If not possible, mental apology is still meaningful in Jain view.)
    • Every time anger flares again:
    - Don’t be shocked, - Just treat it as another chance to practice forgiveness.

    7.3 For fear of “abhavya” and “will I get moksha?”

    Jain dharma clearly teaches:

    • It is impossible for us to know in which category (bhavya/abhavya) we are.
    • Fearful repeated thinking: “Maybe I am abhavya” can depress and weaken effort, which itself is harmful.

    Instead, use the rule:

    > “If I have true faith in Tīrthaṅkars, in karma, in moksha, and I am trying to walk their path, that itself is a sign of bhavya‑bhāva right now.”

    So tell yourself humbly:

    • “Whether I am bhavya or abhavya in ultimate sense is not my job to decide.
    My duty is: in this moment, I will keep as much samyak‑bhāva as I can.”

    ---

    8. Summary in very short

    1. Intrusive violent/blasphemous thoughts that you don’t want, which you immediately reject and repent for, are not the same as deliberate hatred or nindā. They bind much lighter karma.
    1. Your past long‑term enjoyment of hatred and cruelty did bind heavy karma, but:

    - Your present remorse, apology, and reform are reducing its force.

    1. A samyag‑dṛṣṭi jīva in lower stages can still have strong anger, ego, even ugly thoughts.

    What he does not do for long is: - Joyfully deny dharma, - Take pride in insulting Tīrthaṅkars.

    1. You show both:

    - Old raudra‑bhāvas (hatred, revenge), and - Strong dharma‑bhāvas (faith in Jain path, only Panch Parmeshthi, desire for moksha, karuṇā). This mixture is normal for a saṃsārī; now move steadily toward the dharma‑side.

    1. Instead of judging “Am I samyag‑dṛṣṭi or not?”, focus every day on:

    - Pratikramaṇ, Alochanā, Kshamā‑bhāva, Maitrī, - Gentle self‑control over anger and ego, - Simple, steady bhakti without fear.

    If you keep doing this, Jain dharma assures: your present and future bhāvas will become purer, and moksha‑mārg will open more and more clearly for you.

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